How to Manage Offensive and Controlling People – Podcast

In this episode, Nicholette is joined by Kate Cohen-Posey, a clinician from one of our Florida offices on the topic of managing offensive and controlling people.

Kate provides valuable tips and strategies for navigating difficult relationships. She offers insights into offensive and controlling behaviors and common tactics used by such individuals. Through engaging conversations and role-playing scenarios, we explore effective ways to respond to offensive remarks and discuss communication strategies like words of affirmation, asking questions, active listening, and the power of humor.

Nicholette Leanza:

Welcome to Convos from the Couch by LifeStance Health, where leading mental health professionals help guide you on your journey to a healthier, more fulfilling life.

Hello everyone, and welcome to Convos from the Couch by LifeStance Health. I’m Nicholette Leanza, and on this episode, I’ll be talking with Kate Cohen-Posey, a clinician from one of our LifeStance Florida offices, and she will be giving us some tips on how to manage offensive and controlling people. So welcome, Kate.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

I’m so glad to be here, Nikki.

Nicholette Leanza:

Great to have you on as well. I think we all deal with some very difficult people in our lives. So I’m looking forward to this conversation today as you give us some tips to help us navigate these kinds of people, even if it’s our own family members or loved ones. So I’m sure we’re going to have a great conversation on this. So why don’t we begin? Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

I am a life stance clinician in Lakeland, Florida, which is between Tampa and Orlando. I’m very proud to say that November 1st will be my 50th anniversary as a therapist.

Nicholette Leanza:

Congratulations, Kate. That is amazing. That is amazing.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Amazing. Longer than any of my marriages. And so I developed this back in the last century. I was in a mental health center doing a group for sexually abused teenagers, and they did not want to talk about their abuse. They wanted to talk about drama, all the high school drama. I had started doing this on my own in the sixth grade. A boy called me names and my mother said, “He just wants to be your friend.” And so next time he called me name, I said, “Oh, my mom says, you just want to be my friend.” Guess what happened?

Nicholette Leanza:

Did you guys become friends?

Kate Cohen-Posey:

He became my friend.

Nicholette Leanza:

Wow.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

So when I was doing the group for teenage girls, I started codifying what I was doing and wrote a couple of books and all that good stuff.

Nicholette Leanza:

Great. So you definitely carry with you lots of experience for this topic to share. So can you tell us what constitutes offensive or controlling behavior, and what are some common tactics that offensive people use to assert their power over others?

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Sure. So the offensive behaviors are, if somebody says, “It’s your fault that X, Y, Z happened,” what are they doing? They’re blaming.

Nicholette Leanza:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

If they say, “Oh, you’re doing everything wrong,” what are they doing? They’re criticizing, these are events, behaviors. If they say, “You’re wrong about X, Y, Z,” what are they doing? They’re disagreeing. So common offensive behaviors or accusations, you always, you never, blaming, criticizing. “You’re such an idiot.” What’s that one? Name calling.

Nicholette Leanza:

Yeah. Yeah. You’re hitting all the labels here in all the categories.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Yeah. Controlling behaviors are a little more surprising because we all do them. So if I say, “Nikki, you should do blah, blah, blah.” What am I doing? I’m giving advice. Okay. Or if I say, “You really need to understand,” I’m trying to convince you. So other ones are demanding like, “You better,” and interrogating. “What are you doing? Why are you pouring the…” I know I had a client yesterday complaining about his 14-year-old stepdaughter questioning everything he did, and, “You’d better,” that’s a threatening thing that’s trying to control, threaten, and here’s one we all do, is defending yourself. When you’re defend yourself, it’s actually controlling. You’re trying to get somebody to see your point of view. Here’s another one that I’m not a fan of. Many people believe in it, but apologizing. You’re trying to get people to forgive you.

Nicholette Leanza:

Ah, good point. Good point.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

It’s much better to admit what you did wrong. So those are some of the offensive controlling behaviors.

Nicholette Leanza:

So thank you for those. And as we dig in the weeds a little bit more, what are some ways to respond to some remarks like, “I can talk to you anyway I want. I’ll make sure no one’s around to hear it.” Give us some tips on how to handle those kinds of remarks.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Okay. So I’m going to respond to what you said, and if you can keep coming at me, just go ahead and try it.

Nicholette Leanza:

Okay.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Okay. So say it to me again.

Nicholette Leanza:

I could talk to you any way I want. I’ll make sure no one can hear me. And I’m just going to just tell you like it is, what do I think about you.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Oh, Nikki, thanks for the warning.

Nicholette Leanza:

Okay, Kate, that was actually really good because I didn’t expect you to say that you just took the steam right out of my attack there. I was just like, “Oh. Ohm gosh. Okay.” That was really great example. Wow.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

I have four strategies, and you can come at me again and I’ll tell you each one that one’s words of affirmation.

Nicholette Leanza:

One way.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Getting words of affirmation is, “Thanks for the warning.”

Nicholette Leanza:

Okay. All right.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Go ahead, try again.

Nicholette Leanza:

Again. Let’s see. All right, let’s see if I can come another the way. You’ll never amount to anything.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

I’ll never amount to anything. It seems like you’re really sure of that. How did you come to that amazing realization?

Nicholette Leanza:

Okay, Kate. Really good. And let me say for the listeners, we didn’t prep, these ones I’m coming up with now are just off the fly, Kate, wow. You’re heading out of the park with this. Okay. All right. Let me see.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

So let me just label what I’m doing, please. You’re really sure about that. Again, words of affirmation, you sound really sure. I’m also doing a very special active listening, which is to label their verbiage. You sound very sure that, and then I’m asking a question, “How did you come to that conclusion?” So questions stump people.

Nicholette Leanza:

Yeah, yeah.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

We’ll get in more to the goals. We’ll go through a few more examples. Come at me again, you can do one of the ones you did before or a different one.

Nicholette Leanza:

How about I give you one more?

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Okay.

Nicholette Leanza:

And this is one that is sometimes in working with my clients that they’ll hear too, and I’ll try to help them navigate it. But, you’re too much. I can’t handle you. You’re way too much. You’re too dramatic. I just can’t stand you. You’re too much.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

You’re not the first person who’s told me I’m too much. And some people tell me I should be on Broadway.

Nicholette Leanza:

I want to applaud that right there. One, I’m a fan of Broadway, but that’s a great response, Kate. That is really good.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Okay. So what I’m doing there is affirming myself. So in a sense, I’m also agreeing. You’re not the first person to tell me that. And there’s all kinds of ways I could have ended that.

Nicholette Leanza:

That’s great.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Yeah.

Nicholette Leanza:

You’re hard to tangle with. You’re hard to throw things out.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

You can’t get me, you just try it.

Nicholette Leanza:

Hey, that’s really great. Are there other ones you want to give an example of? Other comments that you might help with your own clients to navigate?

Kate Cohen-Posey:

 So a really good one. I think as therapists, if you see teenage girls, just about all of them have been told they’re a sl**.

Nicholette Leanza:

Ooh, the sl** shaming. Yeah.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

The sl** shaming. Yes. And so go ahead, tell me I’m a sl**. Oh, no. Tell me everybody thinks I’m a sl**.

Nicholette Leanza:

Summer. Okay. All right, Kate. Oh my gosh, Kate, I’m hearing it everywhere. You’re such a sl**. I can’t believe you. You’re just with everyone. How disgusting.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

So everybody’s saying I’m a sl**. So did you volunteer to tell me or did they nominate you?

Nicholette Leanza:

Oh, good. That’s really good stuff. And I love the fact that this is good stuff that teenagers can use because middle school, high school, that’s where we see a lot of this viciousness too. So to be able to arm clients, especially teenage clients with these comebacks are really good. And they’re not mean. It’s not like you’re getting on the person’s level and being vicious back to them. That’s why I really like these.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

So the last one is it involves a question nominated or did you volunteer? So that’s going to throw people off balance. And it’s also humor. It’s making the awful silly, that’s what humor is. It’s making the awful silly.

Nicholette Leanza:

That’s good.

Tell us about some of the common communication strategies that you use. Tell us more about that.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Okay, so what is communication? People will say this to me all the time, and I used to get so stumped. I’d be like, “Oh God, what are they talking about? This is a broad question.” But what good communication is showing somebody you understand their point of view. And the way I ask people, I’ll ask them a question. I’ll say, “What’s easier to do? Get your point across or to understand what somebody else and show them that you understand their point?” And I would say 99% of the time, I do get the right answer to show people that you understand their point of view. So that’s what good communication is.

Now what I’m doing is when good communication is impossible. And so when my brother-in-law said to me, my father was in his last days, and he had a DNR, he was an attorney. He made it very clear to us. And so the doctors were saying, “We need to give him another transfusion.” And my sisters and I said no. And my brother-in-law said, “You’re just greedy. You just want to get his money.” So I didn’t have a response on the spot. I’ve thought of many since then. But that’s a time when you don’t want to communicate. You just want to get them to stop.

Nicholette Leanza:

Exactly. Exactly. So in that situation, when he said that, did you just not respond at that time, even though after the fact you just thought of a lot of different responses?

Kate Cohen-Posey:

I didn’t respond at the time that, so now I would say so, “I could be greedy or I could be honoring a DNR. I wonder which one it is?” And the thing is, it really helps me and many people, even if they think of what they could have said years ago, it just really helps to think of that. So that one is I’m agree in theory, “Yeah, I could be greedy,” and then I’m giving another possibility, which is a little hypnotic, “Or, I could be honoring a DNR. I wonder which one it is.” I wonder questions are great. They plant seeds.

Nicholette Leanza:

That’s good. That’s really good. Can you give us some of the names of the specific communication strategies that you use?

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Yeah. So I have four strategies, words of affirmation. We’ve talked about. Asking questions, which is just natural. When you’re dealing with a bully, people say your natural reaction is fight or flight. And that’s what most people do. They strike back or they shut down. You have a third innate response. All animals seek. So animals seek food and shelter. Human beings seek meaning. So when you’re asking a question, you’re actually using a very hardwired builtin response. So asking a question.

So words of affirmation, asking questions. Active listening is something that all therapists are taught. And the way we’re usually taught it is, “What I hear you saying is blah, blah, blah.” So active listening is rephrasing, labeling emotions, labeling thoughts, empathy is labeling emotions, validating people. So those are the active listening. So three As, and then the H is [inaudible 00:13:13] and humor. And so the acronym is HAAA, which breathes calm into life’s cruel moments.

Nicholette Leanza:

That’s good. That’s really good. I loved how you compared to how this is different than what therapists commonly teach as well.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

So normally when we teach active listening, if, and I don’t know if they still teach it this way, but it’s, “What I hear you saying,” you’re putting the spotlight on you.

Nicholette Leanza:

That is pretty much still how it’s taught. That’s a good point.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

That is how it feels. Okay, good. So it’s better to say, “Seems like you’re saying,” and then that puts the spotlight completely on the other person.

Nicholette Leanza:

That’s good, Kate. That’s a really good tip there.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

So that’s one way that this is different. Just checking my notes, [inaudible 00:14:09] not missing anything. So in standard assertiveness language that therapists just love to teach is, “I feel X, Y, Z, I want you to A, B, C, and I’m willing and not willing to blah, blah, blah.”

Okay. So we teach clients how to assert themselves. So I think it’s much better to sneak in what you want. I compare when you’re dealing with a bully. So people get drunk on adrenaline. Anybody can be a bully. You’re drunk on adrenaline. Adrenaline takes blood out of your brain, puts it into your arms for fighting, your legs are fleeing and you’re literally temporarily, I say this to my clients all the time, you’re temporarily insane or stupid because you don’t have blood in your [inaudible 00:15:03]

Nicholette Leanza:

You’re not thinking clearly up there.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

So when you’re dealing with bullies, it’s not the smartest thing in the world to assert yourself because they’re going to come right back at you. One of the originators of family therapy, his name is Murray Bowen, said, “Whenever you assert yourself, and there are times when you need to assert yourself, you should expect an attack.”

My story on that, my poor husband, it was again, I think the last century, and I said, “My friend and I are going to Plains, Georgia to hear Jimmy Carter teach Sunday school, and the political candidate that we like is going to be there. Do you want to come?” And my husband says to me, “No, I don’t want to go and you’re not going either.” I was like, “Oh, this is just what Murray Bowen said would happen. I’m asserting myself and he’s attacking me.” So I said, “I’m not going.” I went out and I made reservations for a motel room and immediately went back and I said, “We’ve got reservations in [inaudible 00:16:20].” And he asked me if I was having a psychotic break. So I was really impressed that he knew the right terminology. He’s not a therapist. And I said, “I usually only go crazy when I haven’t had a good night’s sleep, and I slept really well last night.”

Nicholette Leanza:

That’s good, that’s good.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

That’s sneaking in a defense, but not outright disagreeing with him. And then he said, one more thing to me, and then I carry my bags out. And he said, “I just can’t believe you’re going.” And I look at him and I say, “You just got a $2 million life insurance policy on me, and if I died, you will be wealthy man.” And one of the examples from my life of… I have many examples of when I’ve been so empowered.

Nicholette Leanza:

Great stories, love these stories, Kate. Oh my gosh. Wow. And these are great examples too for people to ponder, oh wow, maybe I can borrow one of those responses in my own life. Now, what happens if individuals recognize that they themselves are engaging in controlling behavior and what steps can they take to change this?

Kate Cohen-Posey:

So if you feel yourself getting emotional or passionate or you’re not going to be able to stop yourself, one of the easiest self-regulating techniques is to just hold your breath.

Nicholette Leanza:

Okay.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

If somebody’s coming at you, they’re yelling at you or giving you advice at infinitum. If you hold your breath, it’s like resetting a computer. I’m going to try this as an experiment, and I do have a Zoom practice on Sundays, and we can talk about how people can join that later. I’m going to have people see if that works for them. And then even better than holding your breath. So holding your breath is like rebooting a computer. So if somebody’s having a panic attack, first response people, therapists will say, “Just regulate your breathing. Breathe deeply.”

Nicholette Leanza:

That is common response. That is usually the number one common response from therapists.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

But you’re hyperventilating. That’s really hard to, and you’re scared you’re going to stop breathing. Just hold your breath.

Nicholette Leanza:

Kate, that’s really interesting. That’s brilliant. That’s really good.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

And then if you want to go one step further, when you hold your breath, bear down, honestly, like you’re trying to make a doo-doo.

Nicholette Leanza:

Okay. All right.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

That is called the Valsalva maneuver, and that lowers your heart rate. So if you saw a doctor and you were in tachycardia and your heart were beating out of control, that’s what he would tell you to do.

Nicholette Leanza:

Okay.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Yeah. So as somebody’s yelling at you, and I have to try this, or if they’re criticizing you, it’s just hold your breath. They can’t see me on the podcast. And then when they get finished, I’ll have a nice out breath and you might surprise yourself as to how you respond.

Nicholette Leanza:

My gosh, I love that. Holding that breath. And then when they’re done the exhale too, we know what an exhale truly does regulate us even more. So of course you’re going to have a good exhale after that. So that’s great. Great tip right there, Kate.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

It was a great question.

Nicholette Leanza:

Yeah, no, it’s goods. Good. So here, tell us where can people find more information on all this?

Kate Cohen-Posey:

I do have a book on Amazon called Bully Proof, and for therapists, it’s Teaching Clients to Empower Yourself Without Overpowering Others. For the lay public, there’s a copy. And for the lay public is just Bully Proof: Empower Yourself Without Overpowering Others. I have a Facebook group called Bully Proof, and I wish more people would post examples of how they’ve been bullied people. But from my Zoom practice, I post on there every week like a little digest of some of the comments we’ve dealt with. Last week, actually, we did one between Xi Jinping and Justin Trudeau. Poor Trudeau, he should have admitted, and he did not. Xi Jinping was upset because the press leaped, and I forget what he did. But the response that we came up with is, “Yeah, you’re right. The press leak and your press is much more disciplined than ours.”

Nicholette Leanza:

Yeah, get a great answer.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

But Justin Trudeau and I are not…

Nicholette Leanza:

You’d make a great advisor for them though. I’d say that.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Yeah. The Facebook group, you are on Facebook and you can just do Bully Proof, and you can always do my name. I have some YouTubes for co-imposing, and there’s one for children and one for just helping people regulate their emotions. All mammals help each other regulate. Mammals do it more by touching and nuzzling, but we do it with active listening, words of affirmation, asking questions in hypnosis and humor. So that’s several ways.

Nicholette Leanza:

Kate, thank you. This is a delightful conversation. I love the fact that we can just very freshly role play and you gave such great responses as examples. So thank you for sharing all your knowledge with us today.

Kate Cohen-Posey:

Oh, I just really enjoyed it.

Nicholette Leanza:

I’d also like to thank the team behind the podcast, Jason Clayden, Juliana Whidden, and Chris Kelman. Take care, everyone.